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ash48This is my broments entry for ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
theheartofspn. I needed to say a lot more about this one so I have created a separate post - which became meta. I suppose everyone will have their own take on that scene. Here's mine.
There's no doubt there is a heap going on in this scene. I am so excited that we are getting some full on, intense brother moments once again. This stuff is the heart of the show for me. I know the brothers arguing is painful and hard to watch but DAMN it's powerful. It's a clear signal that this show is still about the brothers and their messed up relationship. In fact, it feels more so than it's done since season 4.
I am intrigued by some of this dialogue. It HAS to be pulled apart yes? ;)
Dean: You never even wanted this life. Always blamed me for pulling you back into it. ...
Sam: That's not true.
Dean: Really? Everything you've ever done since you climbed into my ride has been to deceive me.
Sam: What do you want me to say? That I've made mistakes? I've made mistakes Dean.
I think it is easy to only focus on what Dean is saying in this scene. He is revealing all those deep seated hurts and so it draws our attention. But I think it's really (really!) important to remember one of the themes of this season and that's - perspective. Sam says "it's not true". It's hard to really know if Sam does actually blame Dean for pulling him back into the hunting life but from everything we have seen over the years there's no evidence (whatsoever) that this is the case. He's never told Dean he resents him for getting him from Stanford. If anything, Sam is the one to continue hunting even when Dean wanted to give it up.
I believe that this is a "guilt" that Dean is carrying and the spectre has picked up on that and is allowing Dean to vocalise this. If you recall episode 7.04 (Defending your life) Osiris puts Sam on the stand and tries to get him to confess that he blames Dean for getting him from Stanford. Sam denies it and Osiris believes him, stating that it's Dean that needs convincing. It looks like Dean is projecting his guilt for bringing Sam back into the life onto Sam here.
Garth: That's not Dean, Sam.
I think this is an extremely important statement from Garth. Sam is talking to possessed Dean, trying to reason with him as though it really is all Dean. Sure, some of what Dean is saying rings true to Sam. They are all issues that Sam probably knows Dean is harbouring. But these are NOT things that Dean would say out loud - especially not to Sam. I know Show is using the spectre to have Dean voice his inner issues (which he does) but we also have to remember that part of who Dean is, is being able to keep these real feelings at bay. He may well feel all these things but the "real" Dean can rationalise these feelings.
The spectre seems to remove this rationalisation so those old, deep and hurtful thoughts come out. Consider the wife who was married 30 years and killed her husband. She once, many years ago, felt some jealously that her then boyfriend took another girl to the prom after they had a fight. Over the years she managed those feelings and was able to see how irrational they were. She knew that if she let them surface, they would eat at her and ruin the life she has now. We are allowed to have these irrational jealousies but what makes us human is our ability to deal with them.
It's the same for Dean. He feels ALL these emotions but has managed to put them into some sort of perspective. Day to day we don't see this level of bitterness. Tramping them down is not necessarily a bad thing. I'm sure we all have unwanted feelings (except Garth it would seem) it's what we do with them that makes us who we are.
Dean:Mistakes? Well, let's go through some of Sammy's greatest hits. Drinking demon blood? Check. Being in cahoots with Ruby? Not telling me that you lost your soul? Or how about running around with Samuel for a whole year, letting me think that you were dead while you were doing all kinds of crazy. Those aren't mistakes, Sam. Those are choices!
Sam: Alright, you said, we've both played a little fast and loose.
Dean: Yeah, I might have lied. But I never once betrayed you. I never once left you to die. And for what? A girl? You left me to die for a girl?
Dean listing all Sam's mistakes is tough - for both of them. I am sure Dean is well aware that Sam turned to Ruby and blood drinking because Dean died. Dean died because he sold his soul. He sold his soul because he couldn't deal with Sam dead. Also, Sam lost his soul because he freed Lucifer. That was an error of judgement on Sam's part but he paid a mighty price and Dean KNOWS that. He witnessed it.
Calling Sam out on all of those things is not something rational Dean would do. He knows why all those things happened. I imagine this is similar to the same guilt Dean feels about bringing Sam back into the life. Rational Dean never plays the blame game. He knows what they have to do to survive.
Dean's interpretation of "betrayal" is a perspective also. Dean's inner feelings reveal that he felt betrayed by Sam not looking for him when he disappeared. There's no doubt that such a confession from Sam cuts deep. And yet if you asked Dean what should Sam have done he would probably say "get on with your life". We know how important Sam's well being is to Dean. If, given a choice between Sam making a deal or killing himself in the pursuit of trying to find him, Dean would say "haven't you learned your lesson!". He would probably say he did the right thing.
But the spectre is a "monster" and has brought out the thoughts that Dean has worked so hard to deal with. Dean has truly been injured in this hunt. And what's worse? He doesn't even remember it. He can't defend what he said because he doesn't know what he said.
Notice how quick he was to agree to Sam at the end? Rational Dean is back. The thing that Sam didn't realise is that Dean has, in some ways, dealt with all that hurt - that sense of betrayal. He has been managing it. Sam tells Dean to "move on". To be honest I think Dean has been trying to move on. He knows all those deep feelings are brought about by his messed up love for Sam. Whether he will ever be over the guilt is another question all together.
He also says that he has never "betrayed" Sam. That might depend on which way you look at. From Sam's perspective Dean killing Amy may well be an act of betrayal. Dean not coming clean about Benny may also be seen as betrayal. I am not defending Sam here (at all) I am merely suggesting that we can't take what Dean is saying at face value. Just because he says he's never betrayed Sam doesn't make it so.
Garth: Come on Dean. You do not want to kill your brother. You've been protecting him all your whole life. Don't stop now.
*guh* We know this is true. It's so interesting that Garth is able to cut to what really REALLY matters to Dean. Garth knows this basic truth (somehow) and it's evidence of just how powerful this monster is that Dean's base, true feelings for Sam can't override those painful ones. We know that Dean has been indoctrinated with "look out for Sam" since Sam was born. He sold his soul for Sam - we KNOW what's really in Dean's heart. He bears some bitterness, but it doesn't mean it overrides his love and protectiveness for Sam.
Dean: He left me to rot in Purgatory.
Garth: Alright. Alright. I wasn't there. I'm sure he has his reasons.
Sam: Just like you had your reasons for Benny.
I love the way Garth gets this so right - "I'm sure he has his reasons".
That works for both of them. They both have REASONS for their actions and so far neither of them have really listened to the other. Or allowed the other to even have "reasons". Their level of jealously here is astounding. So is their level of what they need from each other. (I friggin' LOVE IT!)
Dean: Benny's been more of a brother to me in the past year than you've ever been. That's right.
Cas let me down. You let me down. The only person who hasn't let me down is Benny.
Wow. This is probably the hardest thing to hear (not only for us but for Sam also). It raises the question...what does Dean want from a brother? From what we have seen (and unfortunately I have to site Swap Meat), Dean wants someone who looks up to him, drinks with him and has unquestionable loyalty. A brother who will follow him no matter what. Someone who doesn't question his motives or actions.
But we know Sam isn't that kind of brother. He is SO much more than that. He's a partner, someone who will watch his back and stick by him NO MATTER WHAT. He's someone who will call Dean on his shit. He's someone who will help keep him human. Rational Dean knows that. Possessed Dean only feels the betrayal. This is only a small part of everything else he feels for Sam.
This episode is reminicent of Asylum (when Sam is forced to speak his mind) and Sex and Violence (where they are both forced to). Sam said things that he felt deep down but in reality he was coming to terms with them. Rational Sam knew why Dean followed orders the way he did. In Sex and Violence we find out that what they necessarily want from each other is not what they need. Both of them need the other beyond just being a drink buddy and a yes-man.
That's my rationalising of that amazing scene. There is of course so much more to discuss in terms what was behind everything that was said. But it's not easy. This is not a scene about who's right or wrong. It's not a scene of laying blame or making sense. It's a scene where a monster forced a person who has bravely rationalised and fought dark feelings to vocalise them. It's about giving the brothers something to be divided about so we can watch their journey through to reconciliation. My separation and reunion meta posts (here and here) were all about just that. They do want and THEY WILL find their way back to each other. It may take time but when they do they will have an even stronger understanding for each other. I think there will be growth on both sides. (hee...and if their bond could be any stronger than it already is then it will be...)
I suppose the question now is how are they going to deal with the fallout from all that.
*rubs hands* I can't wait to find out.
(I also have to say that I love that they are making Sam not looking for Dean a major plot point. It's not some throw away line - it's a major source of the angst this season and I think it's going to be used to really explored what these boys need - not only for themselves but for each other.).
theheartofspn. I needed to say a lot more about this one so I have created a separate post - which became meta. I suppose everyone will have their own take on that scene. Here's mine.There's no doubt there is a heap going on in this scene. I am so excited that we are getting some full on, intense brother moments once again. This stuff is the heart of the show for me. I know the brothers arguing is painful and hard to watch but DAMN it's powerful. It's a clear signal that this show is still about the brothers and their messed up relationship. In fact, it feels more so than it's done since season 4.
I am intrigued by some of this dialogue. It HAS to be pulled apart yes? ;)
Dean: You never even wanted this life. Always blamed me for pulling you back into it. ...
Sam: That's not true.
Dean: Really? Everything you've ever done since you climbed into my ride has been to deceive me.
Sam: What do you want me to say? That I've made mistakes? I've made mistakes Dean.
I think it is easy to only focus on what Dean is saying in this scene. He is revealing all those deep seated hurts and so it draws our attention. But I think it's really (really!) important to remember one of the themes of this season and that's - perspective. Sam says "it's not true". It's hard to really know if Sam does actually blame Dean for pulling him back into the hunting life but from everything we have seen over the years there's no evidence (whatsoever) that this is the case. He's never told Dean he resents him for getting him from Stanford. If anything, Sam is the one to continue hunting even when Dean wanted to give it up.
I believe that this is a "guilt" that Dean is carrying and the spectre has picked up on that and is allowing Dean to vocalise this. If you recall episode 7.04 (Defending your life) Osiris puts Sam on the stand and tries to get him to confess that he blames Dean for getting him from Stanford. Sam denies it and Osiris believes him, stating that it's Dean that needs convincing. It looks like Dean is projecting his guilt for bringing Sam back into the life onto Sam here.
Garth: That's not Dean, Sam.
I think this is an extremely important statement from Garth. Sam is talking to possessed Dean, trying to reason with him as though it really is all Dean. Sure, some of what Dean is saying rings true to Sam. They are all issues that Sam probably knows Dean is harbouring. But these are NOT things that Dean would say out loud - especially not to Sam. I know Show is using the spectre to have Dean voice his inner issues (which he does) but we also have to remember that part of who Dean is, is being able to keep these real feelings at bay. He may well feel all these things but the "real" Dean can rationalise these feelings.
The spectre seems to remove this rationalisation so those old, deep and hurtful thoughts come out. Consider the wife who was married 30 years and killed her husband. She once, many years ago, felt some jealously that her then boyfriend took another girl to the prom after they had a fight. Over the years she managed those feelings and was able to see how irrational they were. She knew that if she let them surface, they would eat at her and ruin the life she has now. We are allowed to have these irrational jealousies but what makes us human is our ability to deal with them.
It's the same for Dean. He feels ALL these emotions but has managed to put them into some sort of perspective. Day to day we don't see this level of bitterness. Tramping them down is not necessarily a bad thing. I'm sure we all have unwanted feelings (except Garth it would seem) it's what we do with them that makes us who we are.
Dean:Mistakes? Well, let's go through some of Sammy's greatest hits. Drinking demon blood? Check. Being in cahoots with Ruby? Not telling me that you lost your soul? Or how about running around with Samuel for a whole year, letting me think that you were dead while you were doing all kinds of crazy. Those aren't mistakes, Sam. Those are choices!
Sam: Alright, you said, we've both played a little fast and loose.
Dean: Yeah, I might have lied. But I never once betrayed you. I never once left you to die. And for what? A girl? You left me to die for a girl?
Dean listing all Sam's mistakes is tough - for both of them. I am sure Dean is well aware that Sam turned to Ruby and blood drinking because Dean died. Dean died because he sold his soul. He sold his soul because he couldn't deal with Sam dead. Also, Sam lost his soul because he freed Lucifer. That was an error of judgement on Sam's part but he paid a mighty price and Dean KNOWS that. He witnessed it.
Calling Sam out on all of those things is not something rational Dean would do. He knows why all those things happened. I imagine this is similar to the same guilt Dean feels about bringing Sam back into the life. Rational Dean never plays the blame game. He knows what they have to do to survive.
Dean's interpretation of "betrayal" is a perspective also. Dean's inner feelings reveal that he felt betrayed by Sam not looking for him when he disappeared. There's no doubt that such a confession from Sam cuts deep. And yet if you asked Dean what should Sam have done he would probably say "get on with your life". We know how important Sam's well being is to Dean. If, given a choice between Sam making a deal or killing himself in the pursuit of trying to find him, Dean would say "haven't you learned your lesson!". He would probably say he did the right thing.
But the spectre is a "monster" and has brought out the thoughts that Dean has worked so hard to deal with. Dean has truly been injured in this hunt. And what's worse? He doesn't even remember it. He can't defend what he said because he doesn't know what he said.
Notice how quick he was to agree to Sam at the end? Rational Dean is back. The thing that Sam didn't realise is that Dean has, in some ways, dealt with all that hurt - that sense of betrayal. He has been managing it. Sam tells Dean to "move on". To be honest I think Dean has been trying to move on. He knows all those deep feelings are brought about by his messed up love for Sam. Whether he will ever be over the guilt is another question all together.
He also says that he has never "betrayed" Sam. That might depend on which way you look at. From Sam's perspective Dean killing Amy may well be an act of betrayal. Dean not coming clean about Benny may also be seen as betrayal. I am not defending Sam here (at all) I am merely suggesting that we can't take what Dean is saying at face value. Just because he says he's never betrayed Sam doesn't make it so.
Garth: Come on Dean. You do not want to kill your brother. You've been protecting him all your whole life. Don't stop now.
*guh* We know this is true. It's so interesting that Garth is able to cut to what really REALLY matters to Dean. Garth knows this basic truth (somehow) and it's evidence of just how powerful this monster is that Dean's base, true feelings for Sam can't override those painful ones. We know that Dean has been indoctrinated with "look out for Sam" since Sam was born. He sold his soul for Sam - we KNOW what's really in Dean's heart. He bears some bitterness, but it doesn't mean it overrides his love and protectiveness for Sam.
Dean: He left me to rot in Purgatory.
Garth: Alright. Alright. I wasn't there. I'm sure he has his reasons.
Sam: Just like you had your reasons for Benny.
I love the way Garth gets this so right - "I'm sure he has his reasons".
That works for both of them. They both have REASONS for their actions and so far neither of them have really listened to the other. Or allowed the other to even have "reasons". Their level of jealously here is astounding. So is their level of what they need from each other. (I friggin' LOVE IT!)
Dean: Benny's been more of a brother to me in the past year than you've ever been. That's right.
Cas let me down. You let me down. The only person who hasn't let me down is Benny.
Wow. This is probably the hardest thing to hear (not only for us but for Sam also). It raises the question...what does Dean want from a brother? From what we have seen (and unfortunately I have to site Swap Meat), Dean wants someone who looks up to him, drinks with him and has unquestionable loyalty. A brother who will follow him no matter what. Someone who doesn't question his motives or actions.
But we know Sam isn't that kind of brother. He is SO much more than that. He's a partner, someone who will watch his back and stick by him NO MATTER WHAT. He's someone who will call Dean on his shit. He's someone who will help keep him human. Rational Dean knows that. Possessed Dean only feels the betrayal. This is only a small part of everything else he feels for Sam.
This episode is reminicent of Asylum (when Sam is forced to speak his mind) and Sex and Violence (where they are both forced to). Sam said things that he felt deep down but in reality he was coming to terms with them. Rational Sam knew why Dean followed orders the way he did. In Sex and Violence we find out that what they necessarily want from each other is not what they need. Both of them need the other beyond just being a drink buddy and a yes-man.
That's my rationalising of that amazing scene. There is of course so much more to discuss in terms what was behind everything that was said. But it's not easy. This is not a scene about who's right or wrong. It's not a scene of laying blame or making sense. It's a scene where a monster forced a person who has bravely rationalised and fought dark feelings to vocalise them. It's about giving the brothers something to be divided about so we can watch their journey through to reconciliation. My separation and reunion meta posts (here and here) were all about just that. They do want and THEY WILL find their way back to each other. It may take time but when they do they will have an even stronger understanding for each other. I think there will be growth on both sides. (hee...and if their bond could be any stronger than it already is then it will be...)
I suppose the question now is how are they going to deal with the fallout from all that.
*rubs hands* I can't wait to find out.
(I also have to say that I love that they are making Sam not looking for Dean a major plot point. It's not some throw away line - it's a major source of the angst this season and I think it's going to be used to really explored what these boys need - not only for themselves but for each other.).
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no subject
Date: 2012-11-12 05:36 pm (UTC)As you said there are lots of parallels and a great deal to do with perspective not to mention Sam not looking is a major thing. His relationship with Amelia seems to mirror his and Dean's so am wondering if Sam lashing out was more to do with his guilt than his anger about what irrational Dean said to him seeing how he knows Dean rams things down.
Just saying that Sam presumed Dean dead that is why he didn't look so is that going to be the same for Amelia and her husband Don him coming back into Amelia's life from being MIA and not KIA. To be confronted with that situation once even if you are an unknowing participant is hard but to find you are guilt of the same thing even though you fell apart must kill
no subject
Date: 2012-11-13 01:15 pm (UTC)Hmmm... I didn't delve into Sam's response too much because, to be honest, I feel like we don't have all the details yet and I am still working out where he's coming from. Though I will say that some comments above have really nailed it for me.
I think it's really telling that he seems so resigned when not!Dean is tearing into him. He feels guilt and seems to accept Dean's accusations and yet he collects himself enough at the end to call Dean on it. I think Sam manages guilt quite well - he know he's paid for his past sins (he says so in past episodes) but now he's having to face a new guilt and it will be interesting to see how this plays out. I also think a lot of his anger is tied up in his guilt. Argh....it's messsy.
I probably have a lot of thinky about Sam (he holds my heart I have to tell you) but I can't articulate it. It's all kinda mixed up.
I actually really love the idea that Dean being MIA is like Don being MIA. I didn't see that connection and I think it's a great comparison. And yes... I honestly think this will eat at Sam.
xx
no subject
Date: 2012-11-13 06:48 pm (UTC)I know you say we can't look too hard into Sam's responses because we know so little about what happened to him but I think that last scene is as important as the one you pulled apart because Sam's reaction in that last scene is telling and has much to mirror notDean's grudge dump so you have to take both together, just he doesn't have the excuse of a spectre's penny to bring it out.
I don't see Sam managing his guilt very well, not his guilt about Dean but his guilt about Amelia - Sam is resigned but eventually he goes for not Dean, not on the word betrayal even though that is his new guilt that he hasn't yet atoned for and is what changes his reaction from resigned to proactive. It is Dean's accusations about the girl that seems to make Sam go for him. Like Dean can hurl all the insults at Sam he likes, that is water under the bridge for them but don't bring betrayal and then say girl in basically the same breath. Now for Dean the girl is generic because when Sam goes a girl turns up at some point (Jess, Ruby and Amelia) but to Sam the girl is Amelia and that is his guilty secret right now, which like notDean he is trying to managed (though if he goes into anymore fugue states having flashbacks he might walk into a wall). Because really most people don't move on, they manage their grudges and guilt to the point they don't even realise they have them, which in Dean's case takes a hell of a lot of time as logically he can see Sam's reasoning for not looking but emotionally that is going to hurt for a long long time. but the same goes for Sam with regard to how he manages though he is more vocal and doesn't repress as much (remember the days Sam held a grudge against his Dad - it took at least 3 years after John's death and a trip back to talk to young John for Sam fully let that go)
Also for as much as Dean did need a kick up the backside for guilt tripping the method and timing when Sam did it was vicious as Sam knew that the spectre's victims didn't remember what they said. He didn't say we are clearing the air he basically told Dean to do as he was told or he'll walk because Dean's face at the end wasn't one where he felt uncomfortable and got Sam's point it was one was weary and resigned after Sam basically went for Dean's known weak spot and threatened Benny. Which is cruel seeing how Dean did approach him in an open manner and Sam had been complaining about Dean not being willing to talk, but makes sense if Sam is defending or offsetting guilt and anger and he doesn't want to disclose but that makes him as guilty as Dean about not holding onto pain.
Now when notDean was accusing all the best that Sam can hurl back is keeping Benny a secret when Dean attacks him, which (okay I squew the other way than you) isn't much in light of the last scene. That one involved Sam gaving Dean the town, the fact that him and Amelia lived together and her last name which to me means that Sam saying he told Dean where he is coming from, means Dean actually knows more about the dog Sam hit than the life Sam lead (seeing how the dog was around long enough to make the car smell).
So as much as you can't confirm what is happening with Sam at present you can speculate a lot especially considering they could have given Amelia any tragedy but they gave her one that mirrored Sam's and there has to be a reason for that. Hence my idea about Don being MIA and not KIA to really mirror Sam and Dean which you seemed to like. Also it would make Sam's guilt and trigger points make sense if he had to listen to Don or Amelia herself saying she betrayed Don to be with Sam when he was overseas fighting to get home.
Also I saw something else in that last scene, on Dean's face. It was acceptance, denial over Sam's feelings has gone. I don't think Sam realised he was doing it because I think that in itself is the biggest thing you can take from the whole episode and could be a very interesting thing to see later on as it also frees the brothers from their blind loyalty to each other.
no subject
Date: 2012-11-14 08:16 am (UTC)I think you've done a great job dissecting that scene yourself. :) I didn't mean it couldn't be dissected I just mean that I can't because I don't know what to feel about it yet. I have read many things here and I keep changing my mind about where Sam is coming from. Personally, I don't have a clear picture. But I love that others do and what you say here makes good sense to me.
Sam is a character I can't seem to get a proper hold on (might be why I love him so much!). Just when I feel one thing he'll do something that changes my mind and I see him from a different light.
Above all I am extremely sympathetic toward Sam. I mean, I am to Dean also. I love them both but for some reason I find Dean easier to get a handle on.
Thanks for sharing. <3